The range of SAA statistic is huge, but honestly, the readability is sometimes not so good.
I bought TicWatch 5 Enduro to get better results with SAA. What surprised me a lot is their app. They have some pretty helpful and clear graphs which shows information you really wanna know most and which SAA doesn’t show you at all or all over the place in bad form.
There is a lot of inspiration to take from their app and since you like the watch as well I encourage you to explore their app as well.
But here are two main thing I like to see in SAA which are super important.
Hypnogram
Hypnogram is … I’m sorry, but it’s a terrible graph. The way it shows the different phases is ultra intuitive. Using the horizontal line as time is perfect, but why for example REM is filled through deep sleep and light sleep as well? Why does the higher phases occupy the places of lower phases? It’s very hard to read. (I guess it because the hypnogram is technically just Aktigraf segregated to phases - but it doesn’t mean it should stay in its current form)
This is how the Mobvoi Healt does it and I think it’s superior:
It is very clear what are the values in minutes and %
It shows you what your values should aim for and how different +/- they are - numerically and visually
The absolutely mandatory info, which I’m surprised aren’t In SAA in one graph. Some of them can be found in very specific places, but the rest can’t be found at all.
What do you think? Is there still some space for improvements? Do you see my point of view?
Hello @OndrejVasicek … many thanks those are definitely good points, we already had few attempts to redesign the hypnogram but we also have a lot of conservative users so every change is hard… anyway we are looking into this…
In general we do not want to emphesis the ~REM info too much as REM without an EEG is always just an estimate…see:
and
So the idea in the hypnogram we want to clearly separate deep sleep from the other forms of light sleep.
We use both the deep sleep % and Awake % as the main part of the Sleep score, but do not rely much on REM% which IMHO does not tell much info…
Last but not least our depiction of the hypnogram is very similar to the depiction used in sleep labs…
But we definitely like to improve the hypnogram clarity so big thanks for your commont on this…
@OndrejVasicek Very interesting… I have the TW Pro 5 Enduro too. I love it, and like its sleep stats also. I’m not against your idea, just used to SaA as I’ve used it for years. If I remember correctly, in SaA, if I delete an erroneous awake time, it shows the underlying sleep level. For example, awake time may start during REM cycle. On deleting the awake time, it seems a longer REM time may then show, as if the awake time was an overlay. Of course, I just got the watch maybe a month ago, so I’m still getting used to it. BTW, this is a little off-topic, but have you been able to get HRV to show in SaA using your watch? It should work, but mine didn’t. Then it showed for two nights, then stopped showing. I posted elsewhere in the forum (and communicated with @lenka-urbandroid, and maybe @petr-urbandroid) but haven’t figured out a solution. Any thoughts?
Yesterday I received the Wear OS 4 update and also my HRV got lost. But this should be fixing the issue, although I tested only with a short track not over night yet…
Strange, are you saying your HRV worked in 3.5, but stopped with OS 4? Intriguing, as my HRV didn’t work, then worked then didn’t work in OS 3.5, all BEFORE I got OS 4. I’ve never tried one of your apks yet. It’s that a beta? Forgive my ignorance, but do I just click the link and then follow some instructions? I’m excited to try it out… We’ll I just tried it, and got a message it wouldn’t install as it appeared to be an invalid app…? I have the latest update and latest Pro Unlock update latest watch update. Now what?
Hi @raymillr, the addon for the Wear OS 4 is still under testing, because there are some troublesome permission.
The version for the addon is https://sleep.urbandroid.org/wp-content/uploads/release/SleepWear-5.20.apk on our website. It needs to be sideloaded on the wearable (not on the phone).
Sideloading apps on the Wear OS is a bit cumbersome, sadly. You can check the guide here or here.
@raymillr Yes, my HRV tracking on Tic Watch 5 Pro worked realiably every night on Wear 3.5, but stopped working after update to Wear OS 4… I hoped I have fixed it, but it seems not really…
It seems they messed up something in Wear OS 4 update…
it is really strange becuase when I connect the watch in debug mode I get all the RR intervals no problem, but when you disconnect the watch under normal condition the sensor simply stops sending data…
@raymillr it seems the new Wear 4 body sensors: all time permissin was not granted properly… so now I hope the issue was caused by the permission but I need to do more tests…
@petr-urbandroid I tried to sideload the .520 apk following the bugjaeger steps in the first link you sent me. I read the instructions in the article multiple times since I never tried an apk sideload before. The pics in the article didn’t quite match the bugjaeger app I just downloaded, but got to the apk installation process. I don’t know if I should have seen some sort of completion notice, but I saw afterward, bugjaeger showed no device connected. On my Ticwatch Pro 5 Enduro, I turned off wireless debug, and ADB debug. I then restarted my watch, went to the app info on the watch for SaA, which showed Version 5.16. Does that mean the apk did not sideload? Sorry to bother you as I’m new to this, but perhaps you can give me next steps?
Hello @raymillr … the problem is that after the the Wear OS 4 update my TicWatch is providing significantly less HRV data, even when we regularily wake up the device and do register/unregister cycles on the sensor. Any attempts to squeeze more HRV data from the TW mean a steep increase in battery consumption… so my attempt is to settle on some compromise…
This is why I also needed to lower the data quality bar for HRV in the Sleep as Android app so that HRVs are visible. As we require a certain density of HRV to still consider it valid…
This is probably why on enight you see HRVs and the other night not…
If you would like to try with a version with the lower bar where you should see HRV every day… you would need the latest BETA of the main app Sleep as Android…
No HRV 2 nights in a row. It’s there a possibility I need to change a setting on my Ticwatch Pro 5 Enduro, or on my Samsung S23 Ultra or in SaA? Are there some things on either you would like me to try on either? I might try the beta link you show, perhaps tomorrow. I REALLY would like to see HRV working .
So I can better grasp what you’re dealing with. Can you unpack what you mean by “lower the data quality bar” and "HRV density"and how they affect other end user experience? I’m OK (at least I think I am) with higher battery consumption (on the watch?) as I have plenty of battery time left in the morning and it takes very little time to top it off. I have confidence you guys will craft a workable solution sooner or later. Again, you and your team have created an amazing product. Keep up the great work. I’m uploading a bug report in case it might help your investigation.
Hello @raymillr … many thanks, which version of Sleep as Adroid are you on? Is it 20241001? Many thanks… so far I have HRV every night with this version of sleep and version 5.23 of the watch app…
@petr-urbandroid, hmm, I updated SaA on 9/24/2024. Play store shows version 20240930. WHERE do I get 20241001? Never mind, I found and installed it… I last updated the SaA unlock on 9/6/2024. I sideloaded the watch 5.22 I think 2 days ago. I didn’t know there is a 5.23 version. It’s that also a sideload apk? Is this one that lowers the level of data quality or something to help the app show HRV more consistently? Still haven’t found the
“5.23 watch app”, did you mean 5.22?
In fact lowering the data quality bar will lead to HRV beeing shown consistently…
the problem is that after the Wear OS 4 update the watch sensor provides less data unless we would force the device to be much more awake which would have big battery impact… definetely nt worth the additional data…
Hi @petr-urbandroid, I downloaded 5.23 apk for my Ticwatch Pro 5 Enduro, but haven’t sideloaded it yet. After I installed 20241001, HRV has been tracking. I think I’ll stay with the 5.22 apk on my watch for a little longer to see how well it works for showing HRV. If it displays fine for say a week, would there be any particular advantage to sideloading 5.23 on my watch?
OK, I will stay with the 5.22 apk for now. HRV looks like it’s tracking well on my Ticwatch Pro, with good results, 4 days straight! Thanks again for all your help!
Looking forward to your test results.
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I last updated the SaA unlock on 9/6/2024. I sideloaded the watch 5.22 I think 2 days ago. I didn’t know there is a 5.23 version. It’s that also a sideload apk? Is this one that lowers the level of data quality or something to help the app show HRV more consistently? Still haven’t found the